3 Key Takeaways from Listening to Killers

Besides making a case, there are benefits for criminal psychology.

No Man of God is a scripted docu-film about the encounters that FBI Special Agent Bill Hagmaier had with Ted Bundy between 1985 and 1989. He’d volunteered to interview Bundy as part of the now-famous prison interview program, although Bundy was famously uncooperative. Long story short, Hagmaier’s long game worked…somewhat. The film shows Bundy offering a few insights about serial killers, although it concludes with a trite takeaway: Bundy killed because he “wanted to.”

In fact, Hagmaier got much more of value (as did other detectives). Bundy described how serial murderers go through a developmental process, starting with an experimental period in which they make mistakes. As they get better at it, they also get better at distancing from their feelings about killing another human being. Bundy usually got drunk.

Although Hagmaier didn’t fully explore the roots of Bundy’s motivation, he discovered a productive (albeit time-consuming) approach to a killer as cagey as Bundy, and he witnessed Bundy’s deviant method of arousal. Hagmaier went further with Bundy than the film suggests but not as far as he might have.

I’m often asked what’s the point of interviewing serial killers. Here’s some key takeaways:

1. Motivation to murder isn’t simple, despite what media like to convey.

Besides lust, there are multiple compelling reasons offered by serial killers, from anger to greed to delusional beliefs. Even sexual murder appears to have multiple components, depending on the person committing them. Psychologist Wade Myers and a collection of his colleagues (including FBI profilers) argue that the desire for domination and control boils down to sexual arousal. They think that anger inhibits arousal, so it’s not really a motivator. However, the achievement of punishment or revenge has been a sign to some killers of success—especially for those on a mission. So, an anger-motivated killer can certainly be aroused. It doesn’t serve much purpose to close off possible motives by clustering them all into one driving force. That’s reductive thinking, which creates tunnel vision.

2. Motivation arises from a variety of developmental factors; there’s no blueprint.

The so-called MacDonald Triad (fire setting, bed-wetting, animal cruelty) isn’t a clear signal of a developing serial killer, although it seems like a neat formula. Psychologist James Garbarino, who’s interviewed killers of all ages and types, believes it’s important to get past simplistic notions to find the offenders’ human side, because past trauma influences the later infliction of pain on others. He claims that analysis of facts from multiple domains of an offender’s life is crucial. About our collective knowledge, he says, “I believe it all starts with a fundamental refusal to dissociate and disconnect from their humanity.” Since “understanding them is the key to begin making a safer, less violent society,” we should take seriously the process of learning the whys. It takes time and a lot of probing, not to mention an interview subject that can engage in the process.

Psychological interviews do not focus on leads or confessions. They’re about collecting life details that can educate us about offenders’ points of vulnerability, reactive triggers, past traumas, and decision-making strategies. One of the best opportunities that Hagmaier had, although he didn’t exploit it, was getting Bundy to talk about being a father. Bundy was protective of his family, but he was also proud to have a daughter. By getting Bundy to talk about this, Hagmaier might have gained more details about Bundy’s own childhood.

When I interviewed the “BTK” killer, Dennis Rader, we spent a lot of time on the mundane details of his all-American Midwestern childhood. The things he cared about, the things that made him angry, and the things he most feared provided a clear picture of his psychological development. I learned about a few head injuries and hypoxic events that might have affected his brain, but it was also clear that he’d experienced no neglect or abuse. Thus, he offered details about a different kind of developmental pathway than criminological formulas lead us to expect. As an outlier, he forces us to rethink our notions.

3. Discerning a motivation can require patience, finesse, and gamesmanship.

Hagmaier discovered that trust, consistency, and a willingness to talk about mundane subjects had to be part of his strategy. Bergen County Detective Robert Anzilotti learned the same thing with Richard Cottingham, who’d been convicted of five murders but was suspected in many more. He met with Cottingham over the course of 15 years to build a rapport and watch for openings. Little by little, Cottingham offered cold case information, along with his motivations. Cottingham’s default was to speak in vague terms, but Anzilotti needed specifics. He got them by learning Cottingham’s manner of delivery, which included his need to justify his murders as the elimination of victims that might lead back to him.

The more we learn from actual killers, by probing deeply and watching for “soft spots,” the more information we’ll gain for recognizing signals in childhood for future killers. We can’t let formulas build expectations that might prevent us from seeing the whole picture.

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Garbarino, J. (2015). Listening to killers: Lessons learned from my 20 years as a psychological expert witness. University of California Press.

Geberth, V. (2015). Practical homicide investigation: Tactics, procedures and forensic techniques, 5^th ed. CRC Press.

Myers, W.C., Husted, D.S., Safarik, M.E. and O'Toole, M.E. (2006), The motivation behind serial sexual homicide: Is it sex, power, and control, or anger?. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 51: 900-907. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2006.00168.x

Ramsland, K. (2016). Confession of a serial killer: The untold story of Dennis Rader, the BTK killer. ForeEdge.

Wilson, M. (2021, June 13). How a New Jersey detective coaxed a confession from a serial killer to solve the decades-old murders of 2 teen girls: ‘This case was always haunting me’. The New York Times.